Medsider Radio: Learn from Medtech and Healthcare Experts

After Selling Their First Spin-out (Corventis) to Medtronic, this Team is Aiming for an Even Bigger Splash in the Wearables Space

March 30, 2016 Scott Nelson
Medsider Radio: Learn from Medtech and Healthcare Experts
After Selling Their First Spin-out (Corventis) to Medtronic, this Team is Aiming for an Even Bigger Splash in the Wearables Space
Medsider Radio: Learn from Medtech and Healthcare Experts
After Selling Their First Spin-out (Corventis) to Medtronic, this Team is Aiming for an Even Bigger Splash in the Wearables Space
Mar 30, 2016
Scott Nelson

When most people think of the wearables space, devices like the Fitbit or the Apple Watch come to mind. But over the past few years, there’s been a lot of development with respect to wearable devices that were designed for the traditional healthcare market. Medtronic launched the SEEQ device. Although implantable, St. Jude commercialized the...[read more]

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Show Notes Transcript

When most people think of the wearables space, devices like the Fitbit or the Apple Watch come to mind. But over the past few years, there’s been a lot of development with respect to wearable devices that were designed for the traditional healthcare market. Medtronic launched the SEEQ device. Although implantable, St. Jude commercialized the...[read more]

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Scott Nelson:   0:08
Welcome to Med Cider, where you can learn from experienced medical device and med tech experts through uncut and unedited interviews. Now here's your host, Scott Nelson. Hello, everyone. It's Scott Nelson and welcome to another edition of Met Cider. This is the show where I bring on experienced med tech and medical device stopped leaders on today's program. We got Darryl Drinan. Darryl is the CEO of Philo Metro Attack Accelerator, based in San Diego that develops novel therapeutic solutions for chronic diseases. Feel Metron spun out Core Ventas in 2005 which was later acquired by Medtronic in 2014. Pride of Co Founding Feel aumentaron. In 2001 Daryl was the director of new program management for Bron Thermal Scan, a subsidiary of the Gillette Company. So that further ado welcome to the program. They'll appreciate coming on Well, thank you for the opportunity. All right, on. And I know, before I actually hit the coal record button for this interview, I asked you how to pronounce fellow Met Ron. I'm pronouncing that correctly, right? That's correct.

Darrel Drinan:   1:18
Yes, there's

Scott Nelson:   1:19

Darrel Drinan:   1:19
of stories behind how other people have tried to do, uh, pronounced that name So that's like that's a key point for any startup companies. Choose the name carefully.

Scott Nelson:   1:31
That's right. Good advice. Number one from Darryl. Choose your name wisely, huh? Course. So let's let's start with Let's start on the topic of core venting because I think for most of my audience, that's what they're going to be most familiar with. And, um, let's let's kind of go back to core vent. Is that how it was affiliated with with your accelerator? Fetal Met Ron? That was your first spin out, right? Cor Ventas was back in 2005.

Darrel Drinan:   1:58
That's correct. And the origins of the research behind core vent to started back when we created the Loma Tron in 2001. DARPA funded us to develop patches for soldiers to monitor various physiological parameters, and we were successful in doing that, um, through 2003. We then started to focus on how we would commercialize it for the military and realize that was a significant challenge. So we looked at the, um, health care applications and found the cardiovascular region Ah, market, uh, specifically to be the one that was going to be most receptive to the platform and we met with more David out first on DDE. They wanted Thio do a deal with Kleiner Perkins and we all got together and decided actually to create a spinout because at the time, we had a bunch of different research projects on going in various different categories and kleiner more David, I only wanted to focus in on this cardiovascular application. So we created a company called amigo therapy, which was the first name the undercover name, uh, for your vengeance. And, uh, um, close the deal with those two groups in November of 2005.

Scott Nelson:   3:22
Okay, Great. And that's what become became core venting. It says as we knew it before the Medtronic acquisition.

Darrel Drinan:   3:28
That is correct.

Scott Nelson:   3:30
I want to definitely break that apart here as we as we progress kind of throughout this this conversation. But like I mentioned in the intro core, VENTAS was acquired by Medtronic in 2014. I think for a reported 150 million, I'm not entirely sure if that's accurate. But when you think about that acquisition as well as how well I think Medtronic is doing with with the two devices, I think they're seek and link. I believe is Are there other names? And I'm not entirely sure which one came first, I guess. But when you think about about that acquisition, and then you know how you know the success of those of those those product launches, especially in the US how does that make you feel?

Darrel Drinan:   4:09
Well, of course, you're always proud to be involved with success. But as they, the old saying goes, their successes have many parents, and failures are orphans. So

Scott Nelson:   4:20
one of the many

Darrel Drinan:   4:21
parents that created the core vent a spot form. We weren't the only group. Obviously, there's a great group of guys there in Minneapolis as well as in San Jose. That and I did some of the heavy lifting on the, uh, the application that ultimately Medtronic acquired it for I

Scott Nelson:   4:41
got it. Well, certainly a a cool story in today's into these med tech world, which I think everyone listening to our conversation now understands that it's it's certainly challenging environment, not just from a ah funding standpoint, but also, you know, the regulatory environment you can present various challenges is always just, you know, the, you know, insurance coverage and reimbursement as well so certainly a very cool story. And before we kind of go back to the you know, that pre 2005 era with core ventas and how that technology came to fruition, let's talk about wearables in general because it's certainly a hot space. Uh, seems to be, um, you know, if you keep up with the health care healthcare, seen or met Tech and journals, lots of investment. Ah, lot of eminent activity. Even consumer brands like, you know, Apple and under armour are making significant investments in wearables. I think Fitbits hypo was what Last year in 2015. I think, um, my memory serves me right. So when you think about, you know, wearables, um, is it is it justified that that space is, you know, is so trendy right now What? You're what you're general comments about about wearables? Uh, well, I think there's a Broadway to look at

Darrel Drinan:   5:58
that is in the healthcare space the wearables are yet to emerge of other than a couple of small applications such as diabetes and cardiovascular E. C G monitoring In the consumer side of the business, it's a different approach. Whereas life sciences typically have a very narrow vertical focus on an application in the consumer side of of this system, like fit that, for example, or job own et cetera. They're trying to reach a large, large audience. There's very few, um, applications, that meat, that large, large audience. And so they started with fitness. And as we all see now that there are some challenges to that focus of in terms of clinical efficacy, the relevance to using something. And then, of course, the device itself, the wristband devices are gonna have some challenges picking up clinically relevant parameters. So you think all those will be constrained, um, constraints on the consumer side of the market? Um, I don't believe that technology guys really understand health care, so they stuck with things that they do understand. Fitness is one of them. So if you look at it in that context, they think they're, uh there's there's challenges in that market in terms of future growth opportunities, incremental value, price points, whereas in the health care market, it's very clear there's needs their very clear opportunities. As I mentioned, we look at the beast, the continuous glucose sensing capabilities, the mobile cardiac telemetry, which core Aventis is with our too early vertical applications and have very high value to not only a patient but to pay her in the provider. So if you look at it in the context, the margins are obviously gonna be higher in the health care side of the market.

Scott Nelson:   8:00
And are there other? You know, when you think about the health care side of the market versus that, you know, the consumer play, Are there other areas that you think wearables will make a lot of sense or we'll make a big impact?

Darrel Drinan:   8:13
I again I think we try to keep them bend in those two categories because if you start to get into this middle category, if you will or you get into a gray area, you know, some people have talked about wellness programs. They're now using another term called population health programs. But it comes back to is, is the data clinically relevant? And as it actionable, so in the fitness side is self actionable. You could do it yourself, whereas in the health care site, you typically need a clinician of some sort to help you, uh, understand the value and begin monitoring it and they got area that that that is severely underserved but challenged in terms of a price point. To be able to do it technically or, um is the weight loss category, because weight loss weight management is simply a behavioral issue. You need a diagnostic to tells you the problem. And for the most part, the problem is is, uh is is very simple, and that is e too much and you exercise too little. So if you were able to monitor those two parameters, you probably could then create some type of effective interventions behavioral modifications. But the challenge to date has been the calorie intake, and that is the the ability to determine how many calories person has consumed. Uh, is very difficult to do manually, let alone, uh, because of compliance and estimation errors as well as the variance or what we eat. The calorie expenditure side is very clear, um, that there are devices, including response that gets you to a certain level of accuracy, that that's more than adequate. So a group called he'll be attempted to do that with a risk based device telling you how many calories you burn. But I think they're Ah, from what we're reading is it looks like that the values that there providing to their customers are our suspect in terms of how they're actually measuring it through a risk based device. So our next spin out. We spent the last six years developing algorithms and technology patch technology to actually measure that particular grammar of calorie and Jake. And we've gotten it to what we call a two sticker bar air. And that's more than adequate in the market right now. That's not a cumulative area air that's that's just a nearer so day one. Most people burn between two and 3000 calories a day. Um, and as a result, you know, none of us are rapidly expanding rapidly contracting eso on day two. Then, if you're looking at it as a trend over time, you're at 2 to 4000 calories and so on. So far, so our air of of a Snickers bar is, uh,

Scott Nelson:   11:18
is well within a

Darrel Drinan:   11:19
accuracy needs of the market, Then to drive a behavioral change over a 2 to 3 months period where a CZ you can see the whole premise of, uh, of Weight Watchers is the count points that are

Scott Nelson:   11:32
resigned to a food group that give

Darrel Drinan:   11:34
you the number of calories consumed. But if you take that responsibility away, just take that compliance component but completely away. Take the technique component completely way and have the patient focused not on the counting of calories, but on their behavior. Suddenly, now you have, ah, much more focused system and perhaps a far more effective,

Scott Nelson:   11:59
very cool. And that's what you're doing at bio ribbon Health today. And

Darrel Drinan:   12:02
bio ribbon is is yeah, bio Ribbon is got 12 different families of grounders that it will be the most comprehensive monitoring platform in a single device out there today. And it'll it will be useful in both health and health care applications, as we describe it, so it could measure the usual suspects of heart rate and E, C, G and respiration and temperature in motion. But on top of that, we can tell you your body fat, lean mass hydration, net way emotional status, calorie expended shirt, calorie intake, nets, gallery balance, uh, et cetera, et cetera that you condone with all of the parameters, and it's in a small chest warren patch that uses Bluetooth to go through your phone.

Scott Nelson:   12:51
I happen to the cloud. That's very cool. Sounds incredibly promising on. I mean, I've seen that in all sincerity. I do really want to circle back Thio to the problems that you initially were trying to adjust address with bio driven shortly after. Ah, core vent is there. But before we dig in to buy over them and you know, you know two with too much depth there, but let's go back to let's even go back. Rewind the clock even further, even even, you know, kind of earlier in your career, I I would imagine there was probably some mentors along the way. Maybe some lessons learned, especially as you. You know, it sounds like you had some great experiences from you know your time, that at a thermos can with Gillette and then on to the ER, you know, the UCSD. I think it's wizard program. Is that how you pronounce that? So maybe talk a little bit about your earlier career and that is there. Is there anything, any experiences or any people that you really could point thio, whether with whether it's people or experiences that that you know, you were able to really, you know, kind of propelled you moving forward into your experiences with feeling neutron and core venting. Now, no bio ribbon.

Darrel Drinan:   14:08
Yeah, I think I think some of that stand out in my mind through all of these programs. Whether it's my Gillette, Ron days or uh, helping, you know, a couple of different programs. UCSD I was also not part of the Army medical research commands Ah Patrick Group in terms of reviewing external extra mural programs. So what I found filing consistently and the problematic is that people were developing technology and absence of of focus on the problem. And that creates a number of problems for you as you move forward. So if you start with a clinical problem or a life science health care related problem Ah, and understand it well, and focus on that. Your intellectual property portfolio is gonna be far deeper because you're gonna identify not one, but many different potential solutions. You're gonna see the ability to do a SWAT or other types of analyses on lows, and that's your I P is gonna be broader and more robust, too. Capture a field of use that is meaningful into the market and you'll understand all of the challenges that others have had. So when we were at Gillette, we were studying this category of body composition very heavily and wait developed a a mind set that says Don't drink your own Kool Aid and that that came from my design teams in San Diego and Germany. Um, we started to do focus groups and what the focus groups was telling us completely different when the device that we were developing. So I made my guys go to these focus groups, and for the most part, they were stunned because the market for those types of devices at the time was predominantly women, uh, who are making the purchase decisions that we were looking for in those focus groups in San Diego, Paris, um, Frankfurt in, uh, Boston. We're looking for specific feedback of why they would buy it and why they wouldn't buy it. And I'll be candid and tell you that some of the design options that we had to implement weren't even in the same universe of fly that the testosterone based design team that I had could even contemplate. That's because they weren't mark and so drinking your own Kool Aid is a huge problem. You don't talk to your customer, you don't know and you're developing it full or perhaps the wrong wrong customer, especially again in the healthcare space. Um, the other other thing that we always had at Gillette was this rule that if you had to do three things in a device a diagnostic homebase device, you would fail. So if you would have to, um, the patient would have to be compliant. There was a technique involved with that device, and then there was education of the value they would fail in the market. So let me give you an example of that. The technique, ah, would be a blood pressure cuff, a few on a risk based cuff. If you don't have your wrist above your heart, you can have 10 points and mercury no arm or here in inner injected into the end of the value. So as a result, you're not going. Thio have an accurate device, so that's technique. There's a compliance component to that, too, and that is if I have to remember to do this at eight o'clock every day or or 5 p.m. every day suddenly now I have to be. So I get to their the third component that makes blood pressure possible. If people understand what normal is 1 20/80 or which defined as normal s O.

Scott Nelson:   18:00
That makes the blood pressure

Darrel Drinan:   18:01
possible. But imagine these emerging categories where you don't

Scott Nelson:   18:05
know and I'll give

Darrel Drinan:   18:06
you a An example of that is that, um, the headband device called zio When they came out, it was a compliance issue. You had to put it on. It was a technique issue. If you didn't put it on the right spot on her forehead, it wouldn't work. And the third is a creative brand new value called the Z Q score, which was related to the quality of your sleep. People didn't understand what a normal value waas,

Scott Nelson:   18:31
so as a result, you had all

Darrel Drinan:   18:33
three. And of course, they did fail. They weren't they weren't able to penetrate the market because of Ah, and that's that's ah good example of how you can or cannot fail in the consumer side of the market. On a prescriptive device. There's a little bit more complication because you could have somebody help you understand those values and guide

Scott Nelson:   18:56
you. And I think with

Darrel Drinan:   18:56
the way that digital health is going now, with these automated feedback loops, it's It's becoming more and more, um, possible to use create values and feedback off of data that that the patient may or may not understand.

Scott Nelson:   19:11
Got it. That's great staff. I'm gonna nickname that the drying and three, you know, that's good stuff. And I want to come back to that because I think it it deserves maybe some follow up questions about. In essence, what you're saying is you can't ask the end user or the end customer to take three steps, especially if if you know, two out of the three. At least one of the three is complete, is it? You know, it forces them to learn something new altogether. But before, Well, let's let's stay on there. And I want to ask a little bit more about the focus group concept. But, um, do you see that? I mean, you mentioned the zeal, which I think is a great device, and I do recall that device received getting quite a bit of attention. And there's there's definitely some hype around that, um, but also as it sort of faded off. You know, it wasn't certainly enough. There certainly wasn't the same. That same sort of your attention to the lessons learned with those those founders of the zero device. But, um, do you know what? When looking at like those those three issues that you that you mentioned can you get away with with two? Or is it really just that you can only really asked in user, too, to make one adjustment on their on their end? What are your thoughts about that?

Darrel Drinan:   20:22
I think you can get away with devices with only two of them

Scott Nelson:   20:26
to them. Okay.

Darrel Drinan:   20:26
Aside, I think blood pressure is a good example. They understand what normal blood pressure is, but and there's a compliance and there's a technique involved. So how about standing on a bathroom scale? You understand what weight is so there's no education, there is a compliance component, and there is potentially attacked Nick, if you rock around on the scales or you don't have the scale properly on the floor, it could be a uh uh, Any influence.

Scott Nelson:   20:52
Got it? Yeah, that's that. That's another really good example. And I could I could see your point about why it's not as big of a deal. You know when there's a you know, more than traditional health care setting, when there's a provider involved, sort of coach that patient along, so to speak. But it's certainly good advice, though, for any you know any any, any product of element team that's even even focused just exclusively within the health care setting that you know, once they kind of hit those three points. They're asking that patient, too, to do all three that may present quite a few challenges, even with a coach along the way. It's good stuff, kind of going back to your your comments about focus groups on glove that you went there. And I guess my follow up question is, Is how do you balance that with, um, with, you know, the kind of Steve Jobs concept of You know, of having to design products, you know, with focus groups because, you know, people don't always, you know, uh, don't always know. Know what they want until you show it to him. That hole and I'm not connect paraphrasing that Steve Jobs quote. But I think you get the hint so How do you balance the two? Uh um, you know, focusing on really the problem through focus groups versus using focus groups when they may not know, you know entirely what they want.

Darrel Drinan:   22:02
Yeah, I think that again. Coming back to the difference between a consumer device like a phone or a computer or a I'll describe this technology device in a consumer market versus a health care mark that are two different things. Um, if you have a a Steve Jobs that wants to create a market for a new, uh, solution What? How do you get people to use that? Well, you have to tell them what? What the problem is that you're solving for him. You also have to make it appealing. So the cool factor is a way to market that. You know, I have to have that. It's cool. If you look at clothing. That's a good example. Well, you know, do I really need a new shirt with a new logo on it? Uh, perhaps not. But if it's part of this trend and the cool trend, then I think you you can introduce that and solve a problem that they didn't know they have on the health care side, it's a different animal. When you have diabetes, you have to solve it. Otherwise you you die. And so there is a difference. Um, metric that

Scott Nelson:   23:16
you're going to put

Darrel Drinan:   23:17
on the health care related side is there isn't need. There's a very clear life. Sciences is is, in a sense, easier to address because the problems were known. You're believing you have high blood pressure, your glucose is out of control or your insulin levels aren't being probably you have euro piece. Your hair is falling out, your teeth standing there are as many, many. They're very concisely, um, defined. And that's why the pharmaceutical side of the world is so very narrowly focused on a drug. MedTech is very narrowly focused on a problem, whereas you turn right when you go across the consumer because you have to create the demand on some of these. And that's very, very challenging to do. I mean, how long has it taken the Internet to become such an integral part of our life that we didn't We can't live without it 25 years trillions of dollars. So that's an example of I didn't know I needed it. Now he needed, and I can't live without it.

Scott Nelson:   24:21
Turned her cell phone,

Darrel Drinan:   24:23
et cetera.

Scott Nelson:   24:25
Got it? Now it's good stuff. That's good stuff. Thanks for Thanks for kind of the examples. Like what? Like how you used to describe described the issues. Very good. So let's Let's, um I know for the sake of time, I'm way probably only got another 10 minutes or so. Um, and I want to somehow talk about if you can't contrast, maybe your early days launching, you know, you see that kind of the product development with Corvin tous versus what you're doing with bio driven, I guess what I mean by that is you know, cor vent is it seemed like you really honed in on on cardiac monitoring versus now with bio ribbon. It seems, you know, from the limited information that you should earlier seems like you're expanding your expounding, you know. Ah, lot further. You know, in terms of what you're monitoring, so talk a little about a little bit about you know what what you learned from your vent is and how you're applying that to bio driven. Just in terms of addressing certain problems through the through product design and kind of how you envision going to market with, you know, with what you're developing. A bioweapon. Well, I remember when

Darrel Drinan:   25:29
we started corporate entity or we started commercialize the underlying technology's for Aventis in 2004 and funded it in 2005. There was no iPhone. There was no Iowa's. There

Scott Nelson:   25:44
was no

Darrel Drinan:   25:44
android. So that impediment in that pipeline or that platform and that pipe in the cloud Amazon Web service is didn't exist. All of that exists now, So now weaken. Make it invisible. Like I. The analogy I often draw is to Do you really know if your phone is a CD M A R a GSM phone? Do you really care? Okay, so it has gotten to that. You are you ex interface how I use it in my daily life versus it being a technology different. And

Scott Nelson:   26:25
that's where

Darrel Drinan:   26:26
I see the health care market moving. I see the fitness market doing one thing, staying on the wrist, trying to figure out if they can get any meaningful clinical data off of your wrist or those types of devices. But I think the healthcare wearable market is going vertical, and those verticals are going to be very problem. Focus like we talked about before with a particular solution in mind. But to do that and to do that across a large population, you need many different sensors to mitigate variances and physiology. Variances, use patterns, variances in body motion and what we call a noise artifacts. So, like adding more sensors to mitigate that noise, you suddenly now have the ability to provide a more robust value than a single sensor. Platforms such as the core vent is's the vital connects or even emcee 10 stuff that they introduced at the uh C E s where they're basically an accelerometer and a voltage pickup, and they're limited to variations of that are whereas our bio River platform decided to go put everything we needed in there and be able to, uh, provide all of that data so that new observations can be made on things that we've never knew about. We have a number of difference, um, trials that will be utilizing the platform for things that we couldn't have even imagined. Ah, the platform. But the clinician or the researcher has said, Hey, I need to figure out if this particular parameter has some influence on the underlying condition. I can't go into too much detail, but I'll just say taken example that, um, l'd once at around age 55 to 60 most humans lose their thirst complex so they're unable to tell whether or not they're hydrated. Well, what what is the in clinical manifestations of that? Could it be the effectiveness of drugs when you take them if you're chronically dehydrated or acutely dehydrated? Perhaps, uh, could that cause just

Scott Nelson:   29:02

Darrel Drinan:   29:03
dizziness in elderly patients, ultimately having them going to the hospital for an I V? Perhaps So there's a whole bunch of different, um, yet to be discovered applications that say, If I monitored this and I had a alarm, go off and say, Hey, drink eight ounces of water, would that solve this problem? Perhaps, And there's a whole slew of things that will come out of this, that so we're We're not suggesting that someone look at all this data, uh, naked as we would call it, where were developing what we call signatures or bio weapon signatures. And these are the combination of these different parameters, Um, in as their correlated to that particular, um, endpoint or truth. And those data points will allow an individual or a group of individuals to make decisions upon and drive those decisions from that data. That clinical quality data said that they can do it remotely, and we think that's gonna dress a huge market, Um, in the under in a understood population and that is the population. It's not in the hospital and the population that isn't healthy, it's in between. It's the unhealthy group in between the e r. And all the way back to your healthy, that air elderly or have multiple co morbidity. Ease that air driving the expenditures in the U. S.

Scott Nelson:   30:37
Very I mean, very cool now. So thanks a ton for that. That explanation And before we get to kind of the last, the last three. Very, very short, very, very quick question. And answer a question and answer segment one follow up question to that. So when you think about what you know, the activity, the development, potentially you know the clinical trials that you have in mind for, you know, for what you're doing with bio driven health and then contrast that toe. You know your experiences at, you know, through the core ventas progress progression. Is there something that that is like 11 key thing that, like, stood out during your time of core vent is that you're like, where this is how we're doing it differently at bio driven, One major lesson yet? Yeah, Yeah.

Darrel Drinan:   31:24
I think that the number of sensing parameters, as I say um, is going to is the difference between us that core Ventress is doing or vital connect our emcee 10 or doing currently or even prevent us, for that matter, for all those groups that are at the voltage pick up in the temperature and accelerometer, Um, this is a more complex platform because the data needed to mitigate just positional changes or, uh, temperature changes or seasonal changes. Or Grandma. Grandma's heart rate is 62 in San Diego on Tuesday and she's at 91 on Wednesday while she's in Denver.

Scott Nelson:   32:09
Got if you went to

Darrel Drinan:   32:10
fly to where kids, How do I know that? Well, I I have data coming off the device in the phone that I could calculate that, and that's I can mitigate any intervention if that's true or I can I can't intervene because there may be something going on. I

Scott Nelson:   32:25
got it cool. Very good. So So thanks for thanks for, um explain that more detail appreciated Darryl. And let's get Oh, you know, for the sake of time, let's get these last three questions. If you could just feel free Thio concerned with, you know, in sort of brief fashion or or if you want to spend a little bit, feel free to do that as well. But let's start with the 1st 1 What's your your favorite nonfiction business book? Or maybe one that really gets out?

Darrel Drinan:   32:53
Yeah, I think the lean startup Siri's and I think any of Steve blanks books are. If you haven't read him as an entrepreneur, you are gonna fail unless you read them. They are, um, not close, not not nearly accurate. They're perfectly accurate to, uh, the experiences and needs what you need to focus on because they have such relevance to what I just described. A problem. Focus stock to your customer. Don't drink your Kool Aid. I think they're brilliant.

Scott Nelson:   33:23
If that z go ahead. Sorry.

Darrel Drinan:   33:27
And as I said, in terms of a business leader. I know, uh, Steve Blank is pretty far up there on the pecking list of of people that have sauce. Um really, really challenging problems. I think the other side of this key And you know, whether it's the the, uh, industrial design side of the of the equation here that these devices need to not be, um, traditional medical devices. So they have to have some industrial design and sew you looking at guys like Max Burton at at matter or the ideo folks or frog, for that matter, uh, and have some relationship and having empathy and appreciation for what they do because it's it's subtle to the engineers. They don't get it, but it's extraordinarily important.

Scott Nelson:   34:19
And what you're getting at there is the design component. These devices. It can't be something that that is very challenging for the end user to use. It's got to be designed in a way that is so simple. You know, something like, you know, comparing comparing IOS versus android. You know, everyone cominto IOS just works apple phone. You open it up, it works. You know, not always the case with android phones, so I'm glad that you mentioned that and hearing your hearing, you kind of dive into the, you know, the really the extreme focus on on the problem and not necessarily your tat, your technology or your solution. Reminds me of that. I think it's Albert Albert Einstein. Maybe that quote of like if I had an hour to solve a problem, it's been 55 minutes, you know, thinking about the problem and the remaining time. Five minutes, I guess thinking about the solution. So I'm glad that you mentioned that. So, um so good stuff. And I also find it ironic that you mentioned you called out Steve Blank. Uh, you know it with the lean startup vs Erica Reese because I think a lot of younger folks would would, you know, name Eric Reese and Lean Startup. But Steve Blank is correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, what are the Yeah,

Darrel Drinan:   35:27
I don't mean to exclude Eric, but Steve is doing some other work in a similar capacity, as the lean startup guys have done. So I think they're talking the same issue.

Scott Nelson:   35:37
Got it? Cool. Well, you answered already. My second question about business leader. Call it Steve blanks. We'll leave that one off. 3rd 3rd last question, Darryl. When thinking about you know, your career in health care, uh, what's the what's the one piece of advice that you you tell your your 30 year old self? If we had a rewind the clock that far?

Darrel Drinan:   35:57
Yeah, that's a good question. I would say that. I think the the, uh, you know Ah, it pointed out Don't drink your own cool. I don't think you understand. Don't be enamored with technology for the purpose of technology because technologies hard. And if you focus on a problem and you understand it, you're more valuable. Uh, so becoming an expert or an expert in multiple areas because you know it, um then becoming that Kay Oh, well, in that particular category is very valuable being a generalist, as as marginal value, I would also say that the greatest percentage gain in value happens from creation to I would say, first prototype, our first in human use. After that, it becomes a grind. So manufacturing stuff hardware especially, is a really tough business.

Scott Nelson:   36:54
You have to

Darrel Drinan:   36:54
be, ah, not faint of heart. Teoh be in the hardware side of the business.

Scott Nelson:   36:59
I got it. That's that's good stuff. Thanks. Thanks again, Darryl, for taking the time Thio to converse with me over the past 30 minutes or so and a link to these in the show notes on med cider dot com. But And if you're reading this, you know this this interview and text based format, of course, you'll you'll see the link, Daryl calls out, but with the best place to direct the audience to learn more about what you're doing. Is it? Is it bio driven health? Is that the best? The best? You are here because they want to know, but yeah, by a river health dot com is there? Okay, Very good. So check it out when you get a chance. Bio driven health dot com. Course you cool that or Google, you know, Darryl joining a CZ. Well, I'm sure there were some stories about the Darryl and corporatists want. Not that you know that you find as well if you want to take a little bit deeper. So they're all have you Hold on the line here, but thanks everyone for another. Another interview, Another mid century interview. And until the next one, everyone take care